Tuesday, January 10, 2006

Hispanics Score More than Half of DWI Arrests (in Springdale).

From NWA section of the Democrat-Gazette on Jan. 1.

(Click time below for facts from article).

42 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I knew this post would eventually end up here, you racists

6:32 PM, January 10, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

* Majority (59%)of drivers arrested for DWI in Springdale in 2004 were Hispanic males.

* Hispanics make up about 20% of Springdale's population according to official figures (15% male, 4% female).

*DWI Arrests were up 40% from 2000 to 2004.

*Accidents caused by drunken drivers declined from 148 in 2003 to 143 in 2004, but that was after increases of at least 13% from 2000-2003.

* Two officers accounted for 28% of the department's total.

* 51% of the city's 2004 accidents caused by drunken driving had a Hispanic involved.

6:39 PM, January 10, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

Normally I delete comments that slip in before the article is posted, but I think I will leave yours up as a testamony as to how some people play the race card even BEFORE the article is posted. They don't wait and read the article and use facts and logic to point out how the article is biased or racist, rather they simply throw the race card out first as an attempt to choke off rational (and non-racist) debate about a serious topic.

6:42 PM, January 10, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

And everything here is simply a paraphrase from the Democrat-Gazette's article. I added no comments whatsoever- are they also racists?

6:44 PM, January 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Depends

who wrote the article? And maybe the regular editorial staff was off for new year's eve and weren't around to keep a racist article from being printed.

6:54 PM, January 10, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

And maybe the "made" reporters did not want to report this article because they did not want to be called racists by folks such as yourself. It would take a young and hungry reporter to be motivated enough to do that.

The original article was by Charlie Morasch.

Do you have any theories that explain the facts presented?

7:00 PM, January 10, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

Our hyper-sensitive friend seems to have gone away without offering any theories that might explain the facts presented.

In the interests of inter-racial harmony I will offer a hypothesis that explains the facts above without denigrating any race.

I hypothesize that there are a large number of ILLEGAL ALIENS of HISPANIC descent in Springdale Arkansas, particulary young males. The "young male" subset of ANY population is more apt to get drunk, commit crimes and get in automobile accidents.

In particular, when you are talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS, you are talking about a further subset of a group that is already predisposed to risky and even criminal behavior, since they all broke into another country without the government's permission. Most of us would never consider such a thing. Perhaps this represents a group that has less inhibitions on their behavior than the average American Citizen of Hispanic descent.

In short, my hypothesis is that a large cadre of recently and illicitly arrived young men are skewing the stats and making the legal American citizens of Hispanic descent look bad. That is, look bad in the eyes of those who lump them all together with this recently arrived criminal class known as "illegal aliens". I disapprove of such lumping. I approve of securing our borders and deporting persons who are here illegally.

7:53 PM, January 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suppose they still wear sombreros and drink tequilla in front of cacti too?

The latino community leaders there in Springdale are saying that the police are racial profiling.

8:22 PM, January 10, 2006  
Anonymous Mark M said...

OK, the police are racially profiling. That is your hypothesis. Please offer some facts to support your hypothesis, otherwise it is just more "everyone is a racist".

I will offer a bit of evidence that racial profiling is NOT a significant factor in DWI arrests- the article notes that the majority of ACCIDENTS involving drunkeness were with a Hispanic.

Even if DWI arrests were profiling, the ACCIDENTS caused by DWI are not racially profiling. The cops are not selecting which drunks get in accidents! The fact that the percentages of Hispanics for the two groups (total DWIs vs. Accidents involving DWIs) is so similar argues against racial profiling being a significant factor.

If they were arrested for DWI at twice the proportion of their DWI accident rate, that would raise a red flag that racial profiling was a significant factor. Such seems NOT to be the case.

I don't want police using racial profiling for DWIs, at the same time, I don't want them to be so scared of PC repercussions that they are timid about doing their job. That will just wind up getting some nine year old girl killed by a drunk driver that should have been nailed.

9:03 PM, January 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

....and I guess it depends on who you decide the "community leaders" are. My guy says he knows some latino community leaders that say the problem is that the illegals are giving them a bad name. "Guilt by association" is not really fair, but they think it is happening.

9:07 PM, January 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is my opinion that Mark Moore posted this comment with the specific purpose of race baiting and creating racial tensions. I do not believe he made the post out of Christ-like compassion for a moral failing in a community in order that the people might be restored. If he makes that claim, then his piety seems nauseatingly insincere and hypocritical.

Suppose a typically atheist or otherwise anti-Christian blog posted the following facts: Those more educated now tend to be significantly less educated. For example, evangelicals are the only religious group in America that exceeds the national average of those not completing the eight grade or high school. At the same time only 24.2 percent of evangelicals achieve some university training, compared to 68 percent of non-Christians.

Mark Moore would be the first screaming for the rooftops that this was a bigoted anti-Christian attack, even though it would be nothing more than a simple statement of the facts. The fact not withstanding that it WOULD be a bigoted attack, because that is exactly my point. Mark Moore, you have no redemptive purpose or restorative intent in this post, it is wholly intended to create hate and division. If you say otherwise you are a liar.

First, the facts here tell us that apparently Hispanics, as a group, have a higher incidence of drinking irresponsibly and driving. So what? The facts also tell us that Christians, as a group, are ignorant. (in the uneducated sense) So what? It tells us that Christians need to do a lot better job at policing and teaching ourselves to value an education. Your statistics about Hispanics should be a wake-up call to that community to do a better job at policing and teaching themselves to drink responsibly or not at all. Your post and it’s intent was not to spur this restoration, it was to corporately demean a community because of a minority portion of that community.

Let me repeat, just so you are clear on this fact. A MINORITY of the Hispanic population obviously (based on the facts as reported) drink irresponsibly and drive. Compare this to the fact that a MAJORITY of the Evangelical Christian population is ignorant compared to the overall population. Who do you think most should be chastised on YOUR site? Which do you think would be restorative and which do you think would be bigoted? Obviously a blog for Hispanics in Northwest Arkansas SHOULD post this on their site and press, cajole, and push their community to corporately act more responsibly. For you to do it, especially in the manner in which you did, only serves to create enemies, hatred, and division. And THAT my friend IS what it means to be a BIGOT and a RACIST.

You owe the Hispanic community a sincere apology. You may not BE a racist, and I certainly hope that your spirit tells you it is wrong. Nonetheless, your flesh is seething with what your spirit likely despises.

Second, the claim that another poster made about this being racial profiling by the police is inane. I think Mr. Moore made an astute observation about the fact that these statistics are coming from DWI related ACCIDENTS. This fact in particular: “51% of the city's 2004 accidents caused by drunken driving had a Hispanic involved.” If not for that statistic, the fact that 28% of the arrests came from two officers might have concerned me that profiling was happening. A 59% arrest rate, but a 51% accident rate indicates that a small amount of profiling MAY be happening, but is statistically insignificant compared to the actual ratio of population percentage to DWI related accident percentage.

Third, I think the fact that most of the Hispanics in this area are all young males also more than explains the situation. Consider this. Of that population, 75+% are males compared to LESS than 50% for the general population in the area. Add that to the fact that the Hispanic population in this area are fair younger than the population in general. If you truly want to know if the Hispanic population is “worse” than the general population for DWI, I would suggest comparing offense rates by demographic breakdown of gender and age. I am guessing that if the trend is still be there, but it will not be nearly so pronounced.

Mr. Moore, if you were trying to be informative, then you might have spent alittle while doing more research and answered those questions and others.

Were these "Hispanics" that were in DWI accidents also illegal?

How does the DWI statistics compare along demographic lines?

How does the DWI statistics of Springdale compare to Fayetteville, which has a large concentration of “educated” college brats of similar age demographics?

Incidentally, just so you don’t call me an anti-Christian bigot liberal (which you are apt to do anyway)… I just want you to know that I am a VERY Conservative Evangelical Christian who absolutely loves most all of the Constitution Party platform excepting a few minor details about immigration and the ability to create additional states.

12:01 AM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The quote above should have read:

Those more educated now tend to be significantly less religious. For example, evangelicals are the only religious group in America that exceeds the national average of those not completing the eight grade or high school. At the same time only 24.2 percent of evangelicals achieve some university training, compared to 68 percent of non-Christians.

7:06 AM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

To 12:01

Did you read my 7:53 post? I made quite the same points that you did (except that I did not attack myself as a racsit!).

You don't know me (well, I guess you don't, since you are judging me anonymously I guess I can't know) but I am not a racist. I strongly believe in the Bible doctrine of the Brotherhood of Man. I condemed the White Revolution guys every time they posted at this site that I know of. I saw them one time and told them to their faces that they were wrong and that the Constitution Party accepts people of all races. I have Hispanics in my family.

My spirit is at peace with what I am doing on this issue. I wish I was at peace with everything as much as I am with this. You are ascribing things to me that are not in my writings and not in my heart.

We have to be able to have a talk about Illegal Immigration in this country without people going into hysterics about racism. I don't want the Hispanics in my family, or anywhere elses, to be discriminated against just because they look like a crowd of young criminal males who snuck into this country and behave irresponsibly.

So as far as "creating division" goes, yes. I want their to be a division between those who obey the law and those who break it, not a division based on skin color. Creating divisions is not always bad. Jesus said at one point that He did not come to bring peace to the Earth, but a sword of division. I want to join with the legal Americans of Hispanic descent to demand that our borders be secured.

I will await your apologies unless your initials are D.P.- that one never acknowledges his own error, he only goes into hysteronics about the errors he imagines in others.

8:26 AM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

As far as the stats on education goes, I simply do not think they are accurate. We have an evangelical church up here that has over 5,000 families and it is clear the vast majority of them are high school graduates with college training.

If some parts of your stats are true it still would not bother me. Universities have become very anti-Christian, so I would expect that someone who spent many years in that environment (those who hold pHDs for example) to be less Christian than the population as a whole.

It is not that Christians are less educated, but that educational institutions are less Christian. I also reject the assumption that one who is not formally educated in a university is ignorant. I am becoming less impressed each day with some universities- and I have a bachelor and was 2/3rds done with a Masters.

Your stats about the 8th grade and high school do not take into account the massive homeschool movement in the evangelical community. While I want a strong public school system, I have seen that some families can educate their children at home and produce a result superior to public schools. Most families are NOT right for home schooling in my opinion, but some are.

Both of these situations have some parallels. The stat that "more evangelicals fail to complete the 8th grade", when viewed in the context of the evangelical home school movement, is not really a knock on evangelicals. Similarly, the stat that 58% of all Springdale DWI arrests were on Hispanics is not really a knock on Hispanics once you factor in illegals.

8:38 AM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First, you still have not provided any evidence that ANY of those arrested for DWI were illegal. It would seem to me that if it were the case, then we would certainly know about it.

You keep making an assertion. Let me ask you this, what percentage of the arrests for DWI needs to be illegal to prove your point? One? Lay it out there. If you really are trying to make a point, then let's see you lay out a dividing line below which you will eat some crow.

As far at the statistics I quoted, they come from one of my favorite authors, Os Guinness, and has been quoted by Ravi Zacharias. I do not think those men would be trying to skew the stats. The fact is they are owning the problem and working to change it. Your denial of the problem only serves to perpetuate it.

Here is another quote from Os Guinness:

It is ironic that, although fundamentalists are implacably opposed to liberalism, their extreme reaction shows the same weakness. They, too, stress the leap of faith and make irrationality almost a principle, dismissing the serious questions of seeking modern men as intellectual smoke-screens or diversions to conceal deeper personal problems. All this masks a desperate intellectual insecurity, barely disguised by the surrounding hedge of taboos to preserve purity. The strident intolerance of much guilt-driven evangelism betrays the same insecurity. In these circles, much that is taught has to be unlearned in the wider school of life, and it is not surprising that universities are littered with dropouts from such groups. Their non-rational, subjective faith is cruelly punctured by varsity-level questions, and many manage to survive only by resorting to a severely schizophrenic faith which they hold to be true religiously but not intellectually, historically, or scientifically.

Your statement about "formal" education has some merit, but overall the truth is not that most Christians are informally educated. If they were, then most of them should be able to present a basic defense (apologetic or "reason for the faith that is in you") for their faith. They cannot, do not, and thereby become culturally crippled. Own it, it is a problem we Christian have and need to conquer. It is not that being more educated makes you less likely to be a Christian (as the athiest would like you to believe), but that being a Christian make you less likely to pursue a rigorous education out of a misplaced fear that it is a threat to faith.

Until you provide evidence that illegals composed a significant portion of the arrests for DWI in Springdale, your argument does not hold water.

Furthermore, you still don't get it. You can play the old "I have Hispanic friends/family/whatever" line all you want. It doesn't change the fact that you were using a statistic, which you don't fully have all the facts about, in a way to drive an agenda that you are not entirely sure if your argument logically follows due to a lack of information. (at least at the time you presented it)

If your point had been something about illegals, then why didn't you put in the headline: Illegals Score More than Half of DWI Arrests (in Springdale). But you put Hispanics. Why? Because that is all the facts said? If this was not a racist hit piece on Hispanics but a attack on illegals, why use the term Hispanics and present statistical reports about Hispanics and not illegals?

By the way, I know from personal experience that just because you have friends and even family of another race that you are not a racist. It is an insidious sin that we deny to ourselves but manifests itself by illogical leaps of attributing blame where the facts do not support and doing so in a manner that is not edifying but rather destructive.

I know this for a fact. I am a racist, and have been much worse in the past. But by God's grace, I am learning first not to deceive myself and second to treat other races with the dignity and respect that God's image in them demands.

You say you are not a racist. I say that I am. You say that you are not being racist. I say you are. Takes one to know one, especially if he is in a state of denial.

10:01 AM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Kathy said...

Statistics such as how many arrests involve illegal aliens are extremly hard to come by because there is little pressure to generate such stats. Most of the news media is interested in flooding America with illegals, and many police departments wouldn't touch such a study with a ten foot pole! In fact, many police departments of major cities have official policies of don't ask/don't tell when it comes to the citizenship question. So the numbers just never seem to materialize.

You can shout racist all you want, but any honest Arkansan will admit that the state has a serious illegal Mexican alien problem and this article clearly supports that fact.

11:57 AM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

You are mounting an attack, not on the evangelical Christianity that I live in, but a subset of it that I don't really agree with. I only think they are still closer to the truth than the academics who look down on them. I am not about to defend the strawman mischaracterzation of evangelical Christianity you are trying to set up. I'll defend the real thing that I know and live.

Kathy is right. There was no information in the article about how many of those were illegal aliens, but it is a safe bet that a lot of them were. Good grief, the official population of Springdale is 15% Hispanic male and only 4% Hispanic female!!!! Do you think men outnumber women almost 4-1 in a home grown population?

Your assumption that we would know about it is erroneous. That is not a bit of news that our establishment media wants us to know. I was a bit surprised to find they printed that much. As you point out, the real bosses might have been gone on Jan. 1.

I would suggest that once you correct for age, prep and economic status, the legal citizens of Hispanic heritage would be caught DWI at a rate within a standard deviation of the population as a whole. Since I don't have that info at my fingertips, I can't give an exact number.

I hope you get over your racism. You are wrong to try to project it on me. It is precisely because I am NOT racist that I can have this discussion with a clean conscience.

12:30 PM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

And the reason I used the headline with "Hispanics" instead of "Illegals" was because that was the title of the article in the Democrat-Gazette that I was drawing the stats from. I used their headline word-for-word.

1:16 PM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If your conscience is clear, it is because it has been seared by years of neglect in this area.

You ATTEMPTED to use statistics to make a point that could not be made from those statistics, namely the impact of illegal aliens on the DWI rate. There are only two options, you did that out of ignorance or you did it out of deceit.

What you attempted to prove, cannot be proved from the statistics you named. The fact that you attempted to do it anyway appears to me to be racist. I am sure that it looks that way to most others too.

You said:
There was no information in the article about how many of those were illegal aliens, but it is a safe bet that a lot of them were.

Is it a safe bet? How do you know? What statistics or research or other supporting evidence do you have to make this gamble? Are you setting yourself up to look stupid when someone shows you statistics to the contrary? Which, of course, you won't believe because you have a presupposition based on hate rather than truth and facts. You attempted to site statistics that, by your own admission, do not give any information about illegals in order make an observation about illegals. That is just illogical.

Furthermore, your description of the variance of age and gender somehow prove that there are illegals is stupid. Here is why. Just because there is something in a community to attract a particular demographic does not mean that those coming into that community are illegal aliens. For example, Columbia Missouri has an all female college...Stephens. Now, I am sure that young women are statistically overrepresented in that population, but obvious it doesn't prove that there must be illegal aliens. Another Non Sequitur... you typical mode of operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

You said:
You are mounting an attack, not on the evangelical Christianity that I live in, but a subset of it that I don't really agree with. I only think they are still closer to the truth than the academics who look down on them. I am not about to defend the strawman mischaracterzation of evangelical Christianity you are trying to set up.

First of all, there is no attack being mounted against my or your faith. My point was clear: The source and intent of the information or "facts" provided very often may determine in the mind of those watching whether it was a bigoted/racist comment or if it was a simple statement of fact.

Second, you do what so many others do when comfronted with a legitimate shortcoming of their group/race/religion. They cite the exception and deny the thesis. Why not say, "Yes, Christians should do a better job at promoting and valuing education. We need to seek advanced degrees so that we might speak with authority and credibility when we confront a corrupt and evil world."

Why was that not your response?

2:04 PM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MM said:
And the reason I used the headline with "Hispanics" instead of "Illegals" was because that was the title of the article in the Democrat-Gazette that I was drawing the stats from. I used their headline word-for-word.

That is my point. You were making an observation about illegals based upon facts and statistics about Hispanics. Subconsciously or deceitfully you were saying Hispanics = Illegals, therefore it is valid to use statistics about Hispanics to prove a point about illegals. Clearly, a logical error on your part.

2:07 PM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

You really are too much, ascribing points to me that I did not make and motives to me which I did not entertain. You then go around knocking over these strawmen you have set up as if you were actually refuting something I wrote.

I never claimed to PROVE that illegals of Hispanic descent helped drive up the DWI rate for that community in Springdale. I never claimed to PROVE it, but I advanced the theory that it explained the facts presented in the article.

If you don't like my theory then present your own evidence to refute it. You take the position that you will not concede that their are illegal aliens of Hispanic descent in Springdale Arkansas. That position is so outlandish that I do not even feel the need to attempt to refute it. It is obvious to anyone who lives there that illegal aliens from the South are present in large numbers.

As to your bewildering logic where you say, "Columbia Missouri has an all female college...Stephens. Now, I am sure that young women are statistically overrepresented in that population, but obvious it doesn't prove that there must be illegal aliens", I wonder if perhaps you aren't just being prickly and difficult, but that this really is going over your head.

In the case of Columbia I seriously doubt that even the prescense of a girl's college overweights the boy-girl representation 4-1. Even if it did, that would have no bearing on the prescense or abscence of illegal aliens there.

When it comes to illegal immigration from our southern border, men are more likely to sneak in than women. Men are more likely to make the journey across that river and through the desert than women. Because of that the roughly 4-1 majority that Hispanic men have over Hispanic women in that community IS a sign that there are quite a few illegal immigrant males there. The excess of girls in Columbia Misouri, if any, can be explained by the presence of a girl's college, and the excess of Hispanic males in Springdale can be explained by the presence of illegal immigrants who are preponderantly male. No I will not waste my valuable time looking for some sort of official verification of this as anyone with a lick of sense and one eye knows it to be true.

3:03 PM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

No, I am not saying that Hispanic= Illegal, consciously or otherwise. That is another in your field of straw men that you are setting up, painting my name on, and then knocking down as if you were addressing something that I said.

I don't think most Hispanics in Springdale are illegal aliens, but that most illegal aliens in Springdale are Hispanics.

3:07 PM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

You say, "Why not say, "Yes, Christians should do a better job at promoting and valuing education. We need to seek advanced degrees so that we might speak with authority and credibility when we confront a corrupt and evil world."


Well, you have been making up responses for me throughout this thread, so why don't you just pretend that this WAS what I said?

The rest of you can just read what I wrote about it and consider that my answer.

3:10 PM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't even know what a straw man is. Here is your argument:

Premise: Article says that HISPANICS account for majority of DWI accidents in Springdale
Premise: HISPANICS = ILLEGALS
Therefore: Illegals are the cause increased DWI accidents in Springdale.

You will deny the second premise, therefore, if you claim that the second premise is a strawman, fine. I have no problem conceding it. Of course, in that case your logical construction degenerates to a non sequitur. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Then I have to ask. What is your point?

Are you too simple to debate logically or are you so twisted up in your attempted deception that you cannot escape the simple logic of the situation.

Then you try to shift the burden of proof for the negation of your argument to me. The problem with that is that I have made no truth claims except that your logical contruction to demostrate that "illegals are the cause of increased DWI accidents in Springdale" is flawed. I don't claim that the conclusion is true or false. I am only claiming that your logic is flawed in your claims.

You have asserted that illegals have caused increased DWI accidents in Springdale. You used as evidence a newpaper report that made no reference to illegals in any shape form or fashion. The only way for you to say it is remotely relevant is if you somehow are equating (without evidence) Hispanics described in the article with illegals. You might claim that I am attacking a straw man, but my logic teacher would give you a "F."

The point is this: Even if your guess (it is a guess) is right, you only make yourself look stupid and bigoted when you make logical constructions that are so obviously and pedantically flawed. You do nothing to help the cause of combatting illegal immigration. In fact, you undermine the sensible and non-inflammatory efforts made by people who are not racists but sincerely believe that the immigration problem needs to be fixed.

You and those like you are part of the problem preventing this from being solved.

Of course, if you say it again... and perhaps claim that I am somehow not a Christian, then BAM you win the argument.

5:08 PM, January 11, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

Mark Moore (Moderator) said...
The only assumption I am making is that a significant part of the Hispanic population of Springdale consists of illegal aliens, and that they are as a group more likely to be A) young B) male and C) more prone to commit crimes like DWI than legal citizens of our country. I would be perfectly content to let everyone who agrees with that assumption to ajudge that I have won this little debate and everyone who thinks that assumption is wrong to adjudge you the winner of this little debate. Period.

Since you insist that I am part of "the problem preventing this from being solved", perhaps you would enlighten us as to what we should do. How would you solve this problem? Have you any real answers, or just gratiutous personal insults of those of us who dare to attempt a serious discussion about these issues.

As far as you being a Christian, how can I know that? I can't judge your soul, only your arguments and demeanor. Based only on that, you may well be a saved person, but you are also a mean one. You are smart, but you don't care about using that to find the truth, only defending some position that you must have stacked some chips on at some point in the past.

6:43 PM, January 11, 2006  
Anonymous Harvey Edwards said...

I didnt even read the posts once I got to all the Bickering over racism etc.etc.
It is not and should never be considered racism to protect our People at the Borders. It doesnt matter if that person has blue eyes and blonde hair. ILLEGAL means ILLEGAL. We either take charge and protect our Country with whatever it takes or we become one giant lawless cesspool.
I know I will get hateful Liberalist remarks designed at putting me into my place. Or the ones judging my character but bring it on because if you dont stand for something you will fall for anything. Aka Socialism/communism.

9:06 AM, January 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

harvey edwards you are an embarrassment to the contitution party. shut up and let mark moore or jason shepard handle things

9:32 PM, January 12, 2006  
Anonymous Mark Moore said...

The CP is about more than two people, and this blog includes voices outside the CP. The man has as much right to post as anyone.

7:59 AM, January 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no changing the views of the contributors of this blogspot. Racism is a sin and they will answer for it one day. Their eyes may not open in this life, but they will be opened when they stand before God and answer for their sins.

I am thrilled to live in a country that others risk their lives to come to. It is not up to me as an individual to send them home or to keep them from coming in the first place. I praise God that they have an opportunity for a better life here. You should really worry about what God thinks of you for having the views you have. We should be opening our arms to all people no matter what. That is what God does for us. Maybe we could reach out to them and teach them about God's love and teach them God's word. Isn't that what we're to do as christians.

Stop dwelling on legal or illegal. Look at them as brothers and sisters in Christ and reach out to them.

7:45 AM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Mark M said...

First of all, we don't even know if the illegal aliens are Christians. They could be muslims for all we know. Some are based on the prayer rugs and Korans that out Border Patrol agents are finding in the desert. And if they are Christians, they should have respect for the law.

Second of all, where do you draw the line with such reasoning? Should we empty our jails and prisons on the ASSUMPTION that they are "our brothers and sisters in Christ"? Should peopel be able to walk in off the street and go through your house?

I don't share your view of God. I think it is one dimensonal. It only looks at His Mercy and ignores His Justice. It de-personalizes God. He is more complex than that. In fact, in the OT He authorized the death penalty for all foreigners in the promised land that did not in all ways obey the His Law.

And as for you saying we are racists and will pay for it someday, you violate the command "judge not that you be not judged". Those of us that have a more textured understanding of who God is can put that statement in context, but for one who wants to be so "nonjudgemental" that demand we welcome anyone who manages to sneak in- well, I guess I am calling hypocrisy here.

11:36 AM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, we don't even know if the illegal aliens are Christians. They could be muslims for all we know.

Or more likely they are even worse! The are probably Catholic!

Gasp!

/sarcasm

1:53 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Mark M. Would you please start reading comments before you decide to comment on them yourself. Your reply made no sense in reference to what I was saying before. Please don't question my view of God. I know exactly who God is and what God expects from all of us. I have no question about my christianity and where I will end up when I leave this earth. Can you say the same? The God I serve doesn't sound anything like the God you are serving. You might want to rethink your beliefs. They might be leading you down the wrong path.

3:42 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Kathy said...

Anonymous doesn't have a problem with laws not being enforced. But is it 'Christian' to live in a republic yet advocate lawlessness?
We have a way to change laws in this country, but anonymous, like liberals, would rather take a top-down approach. Just elect someone who will govern above the law and refuse to enforce the laws the People have put into place. That's alot easier than getting the public to support a proper change of the law.
He is obviously an arrogant person who has no use for the opinions of others, especially when they oppose his.

5:53 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like Kathy was describing Mark M. perfectly.

7:48 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know you are, but what am I? Neener neener </moron>

How about elevating this discussion a bit?

8:07 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no elevating the discussion on this site. Everyone here is simple minded and have only 1 racist view. I think true conservatives should stay away from this site. There are better ones out there with true conservative views.

6:46 AM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Mr. Toast said...

I think true conservatives should stay away from this site.

We agree on one thing--you're no conservative!

7:47 AM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

There is no such thing as a conservative site that is afriad to discuss the negative consequences of illegal immigration.

9:32 AM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Mr. Toast said...

We should be opening our arms to all people no matter what.

Really? How about Osama? How about the huge numbers of murderers and drug dealers from that grand country southwest of here?

Maybe we could reach out to them and teach them about God's love and teach them God's word.

Why look down your nose at them? Maybe they already know all about God's love. What makes you think you couldn't learn from them? (I think we all know the answer to that one).

Isn't that what we're to do as christians.

We're talking government policy here, and it's not the government's job to be the pope for illegal aliens.

Stop dwelling on legal or illegal. Look at them as brothers and sisters in Christ and reach out to them.

They're not behaving like Christians if they're breaking the legitimate laws of this country. Legality does matter in Christianity. If you want to reach out to them, then move to Mexico and become a missionary. Don't steal our money to fund your lazy, government-imposed brand of evangelism.

11:29 AM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Different anonymous here --- I met the hungry, young reporter and I think he is hot.

7:02 PM, January 28, 2006  
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