Religious Conservatives Splitting Over Support For GOP
"Tired of Betrayal" Faction and "Republican Lemming" Faction at odds *****************************************
Well, it is happening at last. Significant figures from the "Christian Right" have finally come to grips with the reality that the Republican Party has no intention of enacting any of their agenda. What is worse, religious conservatives are getting the blame from an uninformed (or even misinformed) populace who view the disasterous policies of the Bush administration as the result of "Christians in politics".
This is particularly galling because Bush has not delivered on the Christian Right agenda, they have simply bought into some of his (i.e. the nation-building exercise in Iraq). In other words, the general populace has the idea that Bush is what a "Christian" president governs like, even though his policies are not at all what his Christian-Right backers had in mind. He left them high and dry on policy, but not on blame!
For the last few election cycles, the GOP has not produced candidates that the Christian Right has been excited about, but rather "hit the fear button" by playing up how terrible the other guy is. It worked for them at first, so they played up even more unacceptable candidates and simply relied on slamming the fear button harder and harder. It seems that at last some of the leaders of the Christian Right have come to the place my wife came to three years ago when she said, "My fear button is broken". That is to say, the GOP must produce acceptable candidates or they will not vote for them, whatever the consequences. At this point, witness is more important than winning.
The well-respected Dr. James Dobson is one of the foremost leaders of the faction that is ready to bolt. He met recently with other Christian Right leaders in Salt Lake City to come up with a plan of action. Those who met with him include; the Family Research Council, Bott Broadcasting, Capitol Resource Institute, Salem Communications, Eagle Forum and Concerned Women for America. They even floated the idea of backing billionaire Foster Friess as an independent candidate for President.
(continued- click SUNDAY below and scroll down or if sent straight here just scroll down)
posted by Mark Moore (Moderator) at Sunday, September 30, 2007
26 Comments:
On the other side, you have what I call the Lemming Faction, because (so far) they seem ready to take their congregants right off the cliff supporting virtually whoever the GOP puts up until the last dog dies.
I would say that Gary Bauer is one of the leaders of this group. Dr. Richard Land is among them as well. The American Family Association, as headed by the Wildmons, is also in this group, but they are close to Dobson and are not happy about the terrible situation the GOP establishment has put them in. They are expected to flog their supporters into going out and voting for candidates whose personal lives would disqualify them to be an elder in a local church, never mind the Presidency. Their policies are no better, and all but Mike Huckabee dissed them by skipping the "Value Voters" debate they tried to host.
Enthusiasm is way down in the lemming camp. Even the AFA news organ "One News Now" reported that attendance at their recent "Conservative Christian Summit" drew barely over 100 registrants, less than half the expected number. Bauer, Don Wildmon, Richard Land, and Tony Perkins were all there. That a star-lineup like that draws so few says volumes about the state of the Christian Right these days.
They hitched their star too close to a secular political organization (the Republican Party) whose operatives were better at using people. Those operatives have co-opted much of the Religious Right, and organizations who once sought to hold the GOP accountable now serve the GOP to make sure their members support the GOP no matter what.
Factions are not good for either side of the Christian Right. We should all pray that God will open all eyes in this dispute and prompt hearts and minds toward a unified decision that will glorify God and better serve man.
Mark,
One has to wonder just what it would take to make the Christian Right happy.
Were they happy with Ronald Reagan and his liberal picks for the Supreme Court? How about Bill Clinton and his 8 years of the moral high ground?
I look at all these clowns who are supposed to be leaders of the Christian Right and wonder who in their right minds would let them decide on who Christians should vote for. How much do you think they get under the table to support a candidate?
Bush has done alot of things I am not happy about, but we do have a more conservative Supreme Court than we did 7 years ago.
So who out of the GOP candidates would you want to win?
Tancredo, I do like him but he can't win the nomination. How about Ron Paul? I don't think he would be any different than what the Democrats have to offer.
So what do you think Mark? Throw in a third Party candidate that can't pull 5% or go with what we have?
Ron Paul would be no different than what the Democrats have to offer? The Dems are offering Healthcare Hillary who wants our troops in Iraq until at least 2013.
You may not agree with Ron Paul's position on the Iraq war, Rick, but you can't be serious about that accusation.
Rick, think of it like this....
The Christian Right, far from being difficult to keep happy, has been working like troopers for the GOP for 27 years with almost nothing to show for it. They are treated like Democrats treat the blacks- totally taken for granted.
They (we I guess) were happy with Reagan, but not with his court picks. By the end of his 2nd term Howard Baker (CRFred Thompson's puppet master now) had backstabbed all the conservatives and replaced them with moderates. The last two years of Reagan's 2nd term were a dud because of that, but otherwise, the CR and the country were pretty happy with him. When we elected Bush the Elder we thought we were getting a third term for Reagan.
Fact is we don't yet know if we have a more conservative court than we did seven years ago. It could have been worse because Bush got caught with Meirs. I think these are the kind of "conservatives" who will turn a blind eye to a police state- one of the few things I grudgingly admire about classic liberals is that like classic conservatives they care about Civil Liberties and unchecked growth of government power. Not so Bush-Clinton "conservatives" and "liberals".
I am NOT convinced the two Bush appointed will vote to overturn Roe. They had a chance two months back, and they passed on it. I AM sure they will back increased government surveillance of law abiding citizens.
I can't think of any two political leaders farther apart in policy than Hillary Clinton and Ron Paul.
In what respect do you see them as being alike? I honestly can't think of one thing. Every issue that comes to mind they are polar opposites.
Anon,
My concern with Paul is he would be very weak on the war on terror. He has said he would dismantle the FBI and CIA. What is he going to fight with, the girl scouts?
Mark,
I am not sure what you are talking about when you say, "increased government surveillance of law abiding citizens."
The policy we have now that checks calls coming in from foreign countries that could be from terrorist. Why would this bother you if it keeps us safer? Should we scrap all policy since 9/11 and allow another attack on this country? We know what ignoring the terrorist will get us. Remember the Clinton years with more than a dozen terrorist attacks without a response? Finally they get up the nerve to attack on 9/11 because of our not engaging them.
Should Roe be over turned or is it a states rights issue like before Roe v Wade? Most Libertarians think its a states rights issue.
Again, I have been disappointed the last 3 years with Bush, but where do you turn? I am not willing to stay home or support a weak candidate like Paul and see Hillary win the election. I will take the lesser of two evils.
Rick,
Don't worry about having to use girl scouts to fight if Paul is elected. Even without the CIA, we would still have the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and the Marines. We currently spend more on the military than the next ten countries combined. That is because we are playing "world police", garrisoning dozens of countries, and bombing people until they have the kind of country that our liberal state department thinks they should have.
In addition to the best Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corp on the planet, we will still have 5,000 nuclear weapons and the means to deliver each of them into their own specific square yard of turf halfway around the globe in eight minutes.
We don't need warrantless wiretaps to make us safe. We don't need warrantless searches where the person never even knows the government has searched them. If it is an emergency, we had up to 48 hours for a judge to review the need after the fact. Hillary Clinton will love the slippery slope our current policy will take us down. With only 600 FBI files, she rode roughshod over Washington.
Ron Paul is not in favor of "ignoring" terrorist attacks. He voted FOR the intervention in Afghanistan because they harbored the folks who attacked us. We are spread too thin because we have spent years nation building and refereeing an islamic civil war in a nation that was no threat to us. THOSE are the kinds of mistakes that make us weaker.
Paul also LISTENS to what the enemy is saying- a key ingredient in defeating them. He wants to take away their best recruiting tools. They will go back to warring on one another as they have for centuries, or they will make peace. Either way is up to them.
Overturning Roe would make it a states-rights issue, so I am not sure I get your point on that one.
As far as being a weak candidate, I cannot agree. Paul would destroy Hillary. He has the best chance to win because he cuts far into her Heinous's base. He is THE ANTI-Bush candidate, and that is the only kind the GOP has a chance to win with- sorry Bushophiles but it is the stark truth.
Well, OK, maybe not the whole truth. Hillary! is so polarizing that the GOP could take a pile of elephant droppings and fashion it into the shape of a person and THAT would get 45% against her. ALL THE GOP CANDIDATES have a chance against Hillary, just because she is Hillary.
Mark,
My point on Roe v Wade is most conservatives would say leaving it up to states on whether abortion is legal isn't good enough. Should we ban abortion across the country or leave it to the states?
I am not convinced that Ron Paul would do a good job fighting terror nor do I think he can beat Clinton. He just doesn't have that many supporters.
I don't have a problem with us not policing the world. If I could run the show for a year I would bring home all troops in Korea, Bosnia, in fact most of Europe. They can spend their own money defending themselves.
The one thing I do like about Tancredo is the statement if a Muslim country exploded a nuclear weapon here we would do the same to Meca. That is the kind of foreign policy we need. Let them know we can wipe them off the face of the map, and would do so, if we have to.
Keep talking Mark, maybe you can convince me on Ron Paul.
This from the Ron Paul campaign.
Dr. Paul was campaigning in New Hampshire with his wife Carol and their family when our $1,000,000 goal was reached last night. As the time drew near, they watched on a laptop as the counter reached the $1 million mark. They, along with staff, supporters and volunteers throughout the country then celebrated this extraordinary accomplishment.
Over $1,000,000 raised in seven days for the Ron Paul 2008 presidential campaign. Remarkable!
On behalf of Dr. Paul and every member of the campaign staff: Thank you!!
Kent Snyder
Chairman
Ron Paul 2008
I must say Mark, I am impressed!
Mark,
I just spent a lot of time talking to an old friend. He give me a perspective about the neo-conservatives that I had never had. I think that there is a very bad mis-perception and confusing of WHAT a neo-con actually is.
Those who came from Reagan's old administration who used the CIA and FBI to fight the Cold War effectively without systematically dismantling our liberties and are categorically opposed to globalism should not be confused with globalist who are infesting both the Republican and Democrat parties these days.
I have been convinced that Ron Paul is wrong on the solution to the war. My friend tells me that activities currently going on in Iraq is "old-school" and explains why things are getting better. He explained that how Blackwater is still too visible and directly funded to be as successful as past Cold War methods, but it is a good start.
Here is a take he asked me to post:
Victory Lost: The Cold War
Disagree if you wish, but please have some respect. This guy earned it!
Rick, Hillary voted FOR the Iraq war, and Hillary, as well as Obama, won't commit to leaving the Iraq quagmire and pulling our troops out of there. That means that Hillary shares the same view on Iraq that the GOP top tier candidates all have.
How does it feel to be on the same policy page as Mrs. Clinton?
anon,
The one thing I find interesting about the Dems running for President is that Hillary is the most conservative out of that bunch. Hillary has this one right.
Following your thought pattern, does it bother you that Ron Paul has the same cut and run policy as Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Murtha, John Kerry......and on and on..
ha ha- I just wanted to hear you defend Hillary. Fascinating- you GOP kool-aid drinkers will stoop to any low to continue this dead-end policing action in Iraq. Pride will get us all killed.
The difference between Paul and the Dem losers you listed is that Paul actually means it. Just like Hillary, if Reid and Co. got some poll numbers indicating that they should stay in Iraq, they'd change their positions on a dime.
Take a look at Obama- he voted against the Iraq war resolution and has since spoken out against it, but, in last week's Dem debate, wouldn't commit to pulling out. He's modeling for Hillary's VP position.
Paul is honorably consistent, and time has proven him right on this issue.
Anon,
Everyone running for President knows if we leave Iraq we will be perceived as weak. That is why no matter who is elected we must stay until we win.
The problem I have with Paul is he just don't get the war on terror. The cut and run policy Paul advocates makes us weak.
Paul is consistant, consistantly wrong, just like the Democrats.
You just said you agreed with Hillary on the war in Iraq, yet you say the Democrats are consistently wrong.
Maybe you just need to think about this a little.
I agree with Hillary's vote for the war. I also don't believe the Dems when they say they will pull out the troops if elected. But if they did, its the wrong move. They are just playing to their base.
Is that clearer? Long day at work! lol
George,
your link is busted, but I agree that neocons and globalists don't HAVE to be the same thing, though many are both. A neocon wants to use the military power of the United States to reshape other countries' societies into an outcome more desirable to our secular humanist state department. No thanks.
I know why things are getting better in Iraq. 1) Jorge Bush has got our national checkbook and he is borrowing money from the Chi-coms (which our children will have to work off) in order to buy goodies for various tribal sheiks. They will be our friend for as long as the cash holds out. 2) "Al-Quida in Iraq" is only loosely connected to the sophisticated global terrorist network who hit us on 911. It is instead an amalgamation of the frustrated young sociopaths from all surrounding Arab countries who have unleashed their hatred of the world on the Sunnis themselves. Those 20-something rejects who have never kissed a woman are little threat to us in the US because the barriers of operating across the ocean in a different culture are a detriment to them. But they can wander across the border into another Arab state and operate. At least until recently. The Sunnis in Iraq have figured out that they do not want to be brutalized by these psychopathic misfits, and 3) Violence is down because most ethnic cleansing has already gone down in the formerly mixed neighborhoods around Baghdad. The Shia militias have already run most of the Sunnis out. It has been a slow-motion, dragged out civil war because we were in the middle trying to get them to do a group hug.
The Shia-Kurd government is glad that we expended resources and lives routing "Al-Quida in Iraq" because it means we took their side in the civil war and saved them the trouble of sending their own guys to die doing it. Now that we are arming the regular Sunnis (and Baathists, the guys we originally went there to depose) I expect the Shia-Kurd government will have no further use for us and cozy up to Iran in an effort to run us out.
I don't think the globalists and the neocons are exactly the same thing, but I am flexible enough to be against both types of megalomania.
Here is the fixed link:
Victory Lost: The Cold War
In case that doesn't work, try cutting and pasting this instead:
http://arbananarepublic.blogspot.com/2007/09/victory-lost-cold-war.html
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