Wednesday, July 09, 2008

Things I Learned While Canvassing for Illegal Alien Initiative - Defeat or Victory?

At a press conference in the beginning of this endeavor a reporter asked me if I thought our Director could get the support to get the job done. I told him that there would be no problem except for the time element. That proved to be truer than even I realized.

Collecting signatures for this petition was a breeze after we learned where to find large groups of people. (Getting people to collect the signatures in the heat of summer and vacation time was a different story). There is no issue with which I have been involved in the last 20 years where so many people were in agreement about a problem.

I think 90% of the registered voters opted to sign it. Most of the people wanted to sign it before we finished our first sentence. Many of them would get that gleam of satisfaction in their eyes and ask how many times they could sign. Many went back and brought spouses or families to come and sign the petition. Others asked for petitions to take to work to get signed. (If anyone doubts this 90% figure, KAIT TV did a poll and found that 96 percent of the people would vote to deny government benefits to illegal immigrants). See this link for that information: http://www.kait8.com/Global/category.asp?C=4389#poll72649

At the state revenue office in Jonesboro, which represents people from every social and financial stratum, we found that one person can get 30 signatures an hour any working day of the week. Two workers can get as many as 50 to 60 an hour or 400 to 500 on busy days. But we did not think about collecting signatures there until about two weeks ago. We collected three times the number of signatures needed in Craighead County to pass the initiative, and three of our Democratic legislators in Craighead signed the petition.

Some of our politicians claim illegal aliens are not receiving benefits. However, in gathering signatures for this petition, workers at grocery stores told us they get food stamps and qualify for the WIC program (WIC is a program by the Department of Public Health that provides food checks to pregnant women, nursing mothers and children under age five).

Workers at a Medicaid office said a huge number of them get Medicaid. A pharmacist told us that he knows without a doubt that many of them get free prescriptions. The people who gave us this information said all these illegal aliens had nothing but a Mexican I.D. to get these benefits. In fact, the people who worked in these state offices that oversee state benefits were the angriest about the situation because they see every day the injustice of it all. Many of them have offered their anonymous help to prove that these illegal immigrants are getting benefits. That will be of great value to us.

One lady said at a large hospital in Little Rock where her son was undergoing several surgeries (for which they paid out of their pockets) that there would always be a number of foreign-born people waiting there. She said a woman would come out and talk to them in Spanish, and they received health benefits.

All these people would certainly disagree with our Governor Mike Beebe who said we did not need any more laws in Arkansas. (Beebe said he opposes the initiative; saying it would only duplicate state and federal laws; but he didn't tell the people that almost any benefit (welfare, health unemployment benefits, food and housing assistance, loans, licenses etc.) forbidden to aliens by the federal government can be given to them by the state - if the state just passes a law to do so. And there are many so called "compassionate" liberals in Arkansas just waiting to do that. (8-USC-Section 1621)

If anyone doubts that last assertion, consider the resolution that not 1% of the citizens in Arkansas know was passed by the Senate in 2005, SCR 9, that was delivered to Congress and the president of the United States to encourage them "To Create An Expedited Naturalization Process for Undocumented Minors.

Following are a couple of quotes from this Resolution: "Whereas, immigrants can stabilize shrinking populations, facilitate economic growth, revitalize neighborhoods, replenish work forces, and increase property values; and …immigration can be the key to a state's city's, or town's growth and prosperity." That philosophy would undoubtedly lead to attempts to pass laws that would be diametrically opposed to the opinion of the vast majority of people whom I encountered in collecting signatures. ftp://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/bills/2005/public/SCR9.pdf

We canvassers got an education and found that we weren't aware of even half of the problems with this issue.

*Veterans who have fought in Iraq said they were turned down for aid at the same time they saw foreigners here illegally receiving benefits.

*Applicants for aid and workers in the offices complained that one standard was used when citizens applied for benefits, and another standard was used for illegal aliens.

*A Spanish interpreter for a court in Arkansas told us there are far more crimes that go through the courts than anyone is aware of. Not only do the illegal aliens cost the taxpayers for prosecution, but taxpayers also pay for interpreters for the illegal alien criminals; for the translation of all documents related to the case into Spanish for them; and for ALL of them to receive a court appointed attorney at taxpayers' expense. [Don't we citizens have to hire our own attorneys?] A $50,000 budget is allowed for the interpreters for illegal alien criminals alone which does not include any of the other expenses.

*The owner of a brick company and an owner of a construction company in Jonesboro said they had to close up shop because they had to follow regulations, provide workmen's compensation and other things that illegal aliens did not do, allowing Hispanics to work for so much less.

*Construction workers told us how many jobs they were taking from them; people who are earning meager living mowing lawns said they were having a hard time getting jobs now.

*One construction worker said he hadn't had a roofing job in over a year because illegal aliens had taken over those jobs.

*One person in a factory said they were told that supervisors in the near future would have to speak Spanish, which would eliminate many citizens from those supervisory jobs, allowing Hispanics to be promoted to those jobs instead.

*A person in the fire department said some of the firemen were going to have to learn Spanish because they could not communicate with the Hispanics in a crisis because they spoke no English.

*Some people complained that many Hispanics had moved into their neighborhood with 20 people or more living in one house, and they were buying up the whole neighborhood, causing devaluation of neighboring homes.

*Workers in the revenue office said Hispanics often come in and register two and three vehicles, much nicer than they, the citizens themselves, own. These workers think the Hispanics take the cars back to Mexico and sell them before the year is up. That way the illegal aliens don't have to pay any property tax on them.

Defeat or Victory?

I do not think our efforts were in vain. We learned a great deal that we can use in the battle over this issue, we stirred up a great deal of discussion, learned how to prove illegal aliens ARE getting benefits, learned where to get the signatures for the next time, learned that far more people were with us than we thought; and we formed coalitions and unified our efforts. I would do it all over again next year - unless our legislature follows the pattern of those states around us and passes legislation so we don't have to.

12 Comments:

Blogger Grand Intellect said...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/

What does it matter if they get benefits if they are paying the taxes?

The only thing in the world more convoluted and twisted then the US
Immigration System is the despicable US Tax System

I hate to say this, but, hate the player and not the game.

10:23 AM, July 10, 2008  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

That MSNBC link is excellent corporate propaganda. I didn't think you were into that though.

Recently in this part of the state the Acambaro chain was busted because they were paying workers in cash under the table- no taxes withheld. In L.A. county, the L.A. times estimates that 40% of all workers are paid in cash, no taxes withheld. In construction work, it is common practice to hire one legal Hispanic subcontractor who does pay taxes, but who hires a crew that is paid in cash, no taxes withheld. When one of these folks gets hurt on the job, they rush them to the emergency room and get free medical care.

I understand that many illegals are paying taxes by means of identity theft or bogus ID numbers, but there is good reason to believe that they consume far more in social services than they pay in taxes.

It is like someone inviting themselves to your family outing at the restaurant where you agree each person will pay an even share of the bill. The rest of your family has a salad and water and they have a steak with 3 coronas. Yeah, the uninvited person "paid", but not in proportion to the services they consume.

Also, our tax system is highly progressive, low earners don't get as much held out. Not to mention that many illegals ARE filing, and claiming the so-called "earned income tax credit", which is welfare when you "get back" more dollars than you paid in.

In addition, the dollars they keep are not spent in our community as they tend to send all extra money back home. This drains money out of a community.

7:56 AM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger Grand Intellect said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/04/AR2006060400965.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

http://baconsrebellion.blogspot.com/2008/02/illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes-too.html

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/04/11/filing_taxes/

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml

I dare you to call The Reason Foundation Corporate propaganda!

"Recently in this part of the state the Acambaro chain was busted because they were paying workers in cash under the table- no taxes withheld. In L.A. county, the L.A. times estimates that 40% of all workers are paid in cash, no taxes withheld. In construction work, it is common practice to hire one legal Hispanic subcontractor who does pay taxes, but who hires a crew that is paid in cash, no taxes withheld. When one of these folks gets hurt on the job, they rush them to the emergency room and get free medical care."

Everybody should get to keep all their income tax-free, don't you think? I mean, you're not a communist are you? Nobody should have free medicare right? Again, it's not like we're communists right??

Since you and I clearly are not communists then we should be able to agree the problem is >not< with illegal immigrants but with American fiscal policy.

If we had lower taxes (like 90%) and no welfare what be wrong with illegal immigrants then?

"I understand that many illegals are paying taxes by means of identity theft or bogus ID numbers, but there is good reason to believe that they consume far more in social services than they pay in taxes."

When I say "taxes" I don't mean a certain kind, like Income Tax I mean "Taxes" Here's a list kindly provided by you...

Accounts Receivable Tax
> > Building Permit Tax
> > CDL license Tax
> > Cigarette Tax
> > Corporate Income Tax
> > Dog License Tax
> > Federal Income Tax
> > Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
> > Fishing License Tax
> > Food License Tax,
> > Fuel permit tax
> > Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
> > Hunting License Tax
> > Inheritance Tax
> > Interest expense
> > Inventory tax
> > IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
> > Liquor Tax
> > Luxury Taxes
> > Marriage License Tax
> > Medicare Tax
> > Property Tax
> > Real Estate Tax
> > Service charge taxes
> > Social Security Tax
> > Road usage taxes
> > Sales Tax
> > Recreational Vehicle Tax
> > School Tax
> > State Income Tax
> > State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
> > Telephone federal excise tax
> > Telephone federal universal service fee tax
> > Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
> > Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
> > Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
> > Telephone state and local tax
> > Telephone usage charge tax
> > Vehicle License Registration Tax
> > Vehicle Sales Tax
> > Watercraft registration Tax
> > Well Permit Tax
> > Workers Compensation Tax
(you don't need an ID for all of these and sure they are not paying all of them but they are paying some of them and as you pointed out these are just the ones less then 100 years old)

You would have to be crazy to think you could live in the so called "Land of the Free" and not pay taxes, lots, and lots, of taxes!

"It is like someone inviting themselves to your family outing at the restaurant where you agree each person will pay an even share of the bill. The rest of your family has a salad and water and they have a steak with 3 coronas. Yeah, the uninvited person "paid", but not in proportion to the services they consume."

Who cares? Nobody in America pays in proportion to what they consume.

If this was a Libertarian (or Bible) style economy then we would all pay an even share. In America we don't pay anywhere near an even share. (Things like Microsoft pay 0% and you pay around 38.1%)

"In addition, the dollars they keep are not spent in our community as they tend to send all extra money back home. This drains money out of a community."

In America you should be able to take your money out of the community if you want to. You know what drains the money from a community, TAXES! (And Wal*Mart)

Of course you could say that the money goes to paying for schools (hahaha) or roads (hahaha) but it really goes to stuff like this

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000054.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/budget/bg1840.cfm

(the article is a little old but not hard to find a hundred like it)

25 billion dollars goes missing in a year after we give it to Uncle Sam-how much do the illegals take?

When it comes right done to it we could fix the problem easily without having to blame the problem on other people.

Almost all of Americas problems are caused by America. Not insignificant mites like Iraq or Mexico

On the other hand if they all drink trashy stuff like Corona maybe we should deport them all anyway. But if we deport everybody with bad taste then I would have to go too!

Of course this is just corporate propaganda.

12:10 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger F. Prefect said...

"When one of these folks gets hurt on the job, they rush them to the emergency room and get free medical care."

I believe free medical care is beneficial to everyone that needs it. If the patient isn't a legal immigrant, then maybe the hospital can send the bill to the patient's native nation.

"Also, our tax system is highly progressive, low earners don't get as much held out. Not to mention that many illegals ARE filing, and claiming the so-called "earned income tax credit", which is welfare when you "get back" more dollars than you paid in."

Since this can apply to any low-income immigrant, it isn't an argument against illegal's per se, just against every person sucking at the teat of the state.

"In addition, the dollars they keep are not spent in our community as they tend to send all extra money back home. This drains money out of a community."

But in exchange, we get more affordable employees, it's healthy economy, right? Nobody loses?

1:57 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

I agree that the problems caused by illegal aliens are greatly increased by the welfare state. No less an economist than Milton Friedman noted that no nation can sustain open borders and a welfare state. We are defacto trying to, and it is bankrupting us.

Even if the welfare state were gone tomorrow, I would still have a problem with open borders. {and I don't want the welfare state gone tomorrow on the basis that too abrupt a change, even a positive one, causes more harm than good because it is disruptive).

We are supposed to be a government by, of, and for the people. Self-government is not the norm for human kind, and only a very few groups of humans have been able to sustain it for any length of time.

I would say right now our population is teetering on the edge of losing the capacity for self government. If we indiscriminately grant amnesty to 30 million people who also don't understand what it takes for self-rule, it will tip us over the edge to tyranny. Ergo, we have a right (self-defense) and a responsibility to permit only those who we feel have the personal inventory required to rule themselves well entrance and citizenship in this country.

You keep trying to change the subject to taxes. I agree that taxes and spending are too high, but more than one thing can be wrong at a time. Letting 30 million more people into our country that think the government is supposed to provide them with food, housing, and health care is not going to do anything to lighten the tax load, I assure you!

As for the "Reason Foundation", he who pays the piper calls the tune. I invite you to go to this URL http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Reason_Foundation ) and note the Foundations and corporate sponsors of this group.

**********

FP I mispoke when I said "free healthcare" because there is no such thing. There is only healthcare whose costs are paid for by others. I am one of the others getting my assets wiped out by medical bills which are so high in part to re-coup the cost of the free-riders to the system.

As for your last part about us getting good employees and everybody winning, I assume that was satire. If not please see article on "class warfare" http://christianconstitutionalsociety.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52

4:39 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

Who cares? In America nobody pays in proportion to what they consume

The people who are working their butts off every day only to be looted by those paying less and getting more. The top 50% of wage earners pay 94% of all personal income taxes.

Half the country is essentially paying no income taxes (which is the way the Federal Government sans Social Security is paid for, those other taxes are mostly state taxes). No wonder they are voting to loot the other half by expanding government even more. Sure, they will vote for the politician who promises the most government give-aways, they are not paying for it, their boss is!

Adding 30 million formerly illegal aliens who have a hazy view of personal property rights in the mix is going to make it worse, not better.

4:46 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger Grand Intellect said...

The subject is "Why Immigrants are evil" No one argues that they aren't, just why they are. I thought your main complaint was the high cost of supporting them, which led me to taxes.

Why do you have a problem with open boarders?

Should we send people who escaped from dictatorships back to where they came from?

Why does anybody have the right to be in America?

Because you say so?

What are the problems caused, by default, by immigrants?

Is your average American better then your average foreigner?

Why do we let anybody in? I've heard great arguments that we should shut down the borders all together.

Why let anyone out?

Who are these people who sustained self government?

Is Totalitarianism better then Libertarianism or is it the other way around?

Did you know that the words "good employees" never appear in f. prefects last post?

How do you measure the capacity for self government?

What is the "personal inventory required to rule self well"?

Who DOES knows what it takes for
self rule?

Is that on the citizenship test?

Is the CATO institute just a bunch of filthy liars too?

Blogger.com is owned by Google does that mean Google tells you what you can and cannot say?

How do you know what all thirty million of them are thinking all the time?

Why is self government so great?

How do you know that they are willfully malicious and not just opportunistic?

I thought only the Shadow knows what evil lurks in the minds of men. If your psychic, why not fight crime?

Every ten years we get at least 30 million American born people with a "hazy view of personal property rights" Should we deport them too?

Are all men created equal?

6:54 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

Why do you have a problem with open boarders?

I have no problem with people who are renting a room from me being open.


Should we send people who escaped from dictatorships back to where they came from?


That depends on the person and the dictator. Ever seen Scarface? Castro emptied his prisons and insane asylums and sent them all here because we had a policy of accepting all Cuban immigrants. On the other hand, sending back Elian Gonzales was a crime for which I hope Clinton and Reno one day pay.

Why does anybody have the right to be in America?

Because you say so?


The law of the land determines who has that right, and as part owner of the country I have my little say in what the rules are, just like everyone else. Together we make the rules and as such they have more legitimacy than when one person makes them. Reason, an idea "All governments derive their just powers from THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED."

What are the problems caused, by default, by immigrants?

None. I speak of illegal aliens, not immigrants. The pages of this blog are loaded with stories of the trouble they have caused.

Is your average American better then your average foreigner?

Perhaps not anymore, but the average American is better than the average illegal alien when it comes to respecting the law.

Why let anyone out??

Because we have no right to stop them, provided the population of the place they are going is willing to take them. If not, we are being bad neighbors by letting our family tramp through their yard without permission.

Who are these people who sustained self government?

The ancient Hebrews between Joshua and King Saul are the longest example of it in history.

Is Totalitarianism better then Libertarianism or is it the other way around?

That depends. A wicked people with a just ruler are better off under totalitarianism. If men were angels, Libertarianism would be better. Since they are not, a Constitutional Republic based on a Judeo-Christian worldview has produced the greatest blessings for its citizens.

Did you know that the words "good employees" never appear in f. prefects last post?

Not until you mentioned it, but it does not alter the point.

How do you measure the capacity for self government?

What is the "personal inventory required to rule self well"?

Who DOES knows what it takes for
self rule?

Is that on the citizenship test?


I don't know what is on the citizenship test, but John Adams wrote most of the Constitution. That has produced the best example of self rule since the Hebrews, so he ought to know. Here is what he said.....

"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand."- John Adams

"The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." -John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society." -John Adams


Is the CATO institute just a bunch of filthy liars too?


I did not say so. I presume they reflect the views of their patrons or else they would not have those patrons. It behooves one to determine who those patrons are.

Blogger.com is owned by Google does that mean Google tells you what you can and cannot say?

Google does not pay me. In fact I make them money and I can't get them to give me my ad sense cash I earned from them.

How do you know what all thirty million of them are thinking all the time?

I am just that good.


Why is self government so great?


Again, it is not if the population lacks the virtue to sustain it. It turns into mob rule instead of justice.

How do you know that they are willfully malicious and not just opportunistic?

I like to take advantage of opportunities myself, but not if it means doing something illegal, or even unethical.

I thought only the Shadow knows what evil lurks in the minds of men. If your psychic, why not fight crime?

I do fight crime, right here on this blog. The difference between pirates and emperors is the size of their hauls of loot. The big corps want an infinite supply of labor to bring wages below the level a legal free market would bear, thus they cheat the citizen-laborer. I fight that crime and would have you fight it with me.

Every ten years we get at least 30 million American born people with a "hazy view of personal property rights" Should we deport them too?

Well, we do arrest them and imprison them, but we don't have the right to foist our criminals on another country.

9:07 PM, July 11, 2008  
Blogger F. Prefect said...

"Perhaps not anymore, but the average American is better than the average illegal alien when it comes to respecting the law."

Not if we are honest, I mean, we all disregard laws we don't like, like speed limits, right?

10:03 PM, July 11, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I must express my disappointment in this entire discussion, that people who should have a good grasp of the basic principles of good government are making such asinine arguments and comparisons to justify the criminal behavior of foreign invaders.

Prefect, I sincerely hope that your last statement was satire.

7:28 AM, July 12, 2008  
Blogger Grand Intellect said...

Everybody breaks the law.
Its practically impossible not to.

11:03 AM, July 12, 2008  
Blogger Mark Moore (Moderator) said...

You speed? No wonder you criminal law-breakers side with the illegal aliens!

Seriously, everybody breaks the law, not everybody breaks into another country. Breaking the law on occasion because they are so many that you can't help trip over them is one thing, living a lifestyle that is 24/7 illegal is another. One is a temporary lapse of weakness, the other is choice.

You can't seriously equate speeders with home invaders.

6:15 PM, July 12, 2008  

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